"We use isotopes to reconstruct temperature, but the atmosphere that's imprisoned in that ice, we liberate and then we look at the CO2 content."
"Professor Clark and others have indeed discovered, as Al Gore says, a link between carbon dioxide and temperature. But what Al gore doesn't say is that the link is the wrong way 'round."
"Temperature is leading CO2 by 800 years."
"There have now been several major ice core surveys. Every one of them shows the same thing. The temperature rises or falls, and then, after a few hundred years, carbon dioxide follows."
"The most fundamental assumption of the whole theory of climate change, due to humans, is shown to be wrong."
posted by Iconoclast421 at 7:07 PM
If what you say is true, wouldn't the re-alignment of the data be even more convincing toward the argument that Temperature drives CO2 as oppossed to CO2 driving temperature?
I can see why you might think that. I know it is easy enough to say there's a negative offset, but working it out in your own mind, to see if it makes complete logical sense, is much more difficult! Look at one data point along the graph. Lets pick the 10000 year mark that I used in the OP. Say you have ice that is 10000 years old, which contains trapped CO2 that is 6700 years old. (Because new air kept bleeding into the ice until enough ice formed on top of it to stop the bleeding process.) In order to graph both data sets, the CO2 and the temperature, You have to move the CO2 data forward 3300 years so that you're using air that is 10000 years old to match the age of the ice. Since the X-axis is chronological, such a movement has to be to the left, which is a negative offset. If you move the line the other way, as you suggest, you'd be comparing air that was roughly 4000 years old with ice that was 10000 years old, resulting in an even more erroneous chart. The chart would be so far off that you'd begin to notice that the data doesn't follow each other. You'd have periods in history where temperatures rose while CO2 levels fell. That would not be acceptable because all sides in the debate agree that CO2 and temperature rise and fall together, with one party saying one lags while the other party says it leads.
Ok, I've processed the data using excel. I plotted a scatter graph based on the ice age as recorded in the data files you supplied links to. The average sampling interval for the temperature data is 127 years.The problem here Iconoclast is that this is low resolution CO2 data. The average interval between samples is 1460 years which is nearly twice as long the lag (800 years) that Prof Clark describes. Therefore this low resolution data is not capable of proving a lead or lag of less than 1400 years. In practice it would be difficult to even find that. My experience in signal processing tells me that an interval of 250 years or less would be required to get really good information. Your implication that Prof Clark didn't line the data up is pretty far fetched. I don't think you really understand what's going on here. If you want to see a quack or a swindler maybe you should look in the mirror.Based on this data set no conclusions can be drawn as to whether Prof Clark's statement is correct.
What caused the ancient CO2 spikes? Volcanos? anybody know?
DavidJHarper you are pulling numbers right out of thin air. Sampling interval of 127 years? 1460? The interval is 40 years, according to all the data above, data taken directly from the source. Since you know signal processing, and how to use excel, then you'd know that all the tables show a clear interval of about 40 years. That gives you 20 samples per 800 year interval, more than enough to prove lead or lag.I suspect you are trying to obfuscate things by pulling numbers out of thin air. Supply relevant data to support your claim, and explain exactly how the data is relevant. Or be exposed as yet another fraud.
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If what you say is true, wouldn't the re-alignment of the data be even more convincing toward the argument that Temperature drives CO2 as oppossed to CO2 driving temperature?
I can see why you might think that. I know it is easy enough to say there's a negative offset, but working it out in your own mind, to see if it makes complete logical sense, is much more difficult! Look at one data point along the graph. Lets pick the 10000 year mark that I used in the OP. Say you have ice that is 10000 years old, which contains trapped CO2 that is 6700 years old. (Because new air kept bleeding into the ice until enough ice formed on top of it to stop the bleeding process.) In order to graph both data sets, the CO2 and the temperature, You have to move the CO2 data forward 3300 years so that you're using air that is 10000 years old to match the age of the ice. Since the X-axis is chronological, such a movement has to be to the left, which is a negative offset. If you move the line the other way, as you suggest, you'd be comparing air that was roughly 4000 years old with ice that was 10000 years old, resulting in an even more erroneous chart. The chart would be so far off that you'd begin to notice that the data doesn't follow each other. You'd have periods in history where temperatures rose while CO2 levels fell. That would not be acceptable because all sides in the debate agree that CO2 and temperature rise and fall together, with one party saying one lags while the other party says it leads.
Ok, I've processed the data using excel. I plotted a scatter graph based on the ice age as recorded in the data files you supplied links to.
The average sampling interval for the temperature data is 127 years.
The problem here Iconoclast is that this is low resolution CO2 data.
The average interval between samples is 1460 years which is nearly twice as long the lag (800 years) that Prof Clark describes.
Therefore this low resolution data is not capable of proving a lead or lag of less than 1400 years. In practice it would be difficult to even find that. My experience in signal processing tells me that an interval of 250 years or less would be required to get really good information.
Your implication that Prof Clark didn't line the data up is pretty far fetched. I don't think you really understand what's going on here.
If you want to see a quack or a swindler maybe you should look in the mirror.
Based on this data set no conclusions can be drawn as to whether Prof Clark's statement is correct.
What caused the ancient CO2 spikes? Volcanos? anybody know?
DavidJHarper you are pulling numbers right out of thin air. Sampling interval of 127 years? 1460?
The interval is 40 years, according to all the data above, data taken directly from the source.
Since you know signal processing, and how to use excel, then you'd know that all the tables show a clear interval of about 40 years. That gives you 20 samples per 800 year interval, more than enough to prove lead or lag.
I suspect you are trying to obfuscate things by pulling numbers out of thin air. Supply relevant data to support your claim, and explain exactly how the data is relevant. Or be exposed as yet another fraud.
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